W'ed be speaking German if it wasn't for America!

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W'ed be speaking German if it wasn't for America!
Topic Started: Feb 18 2010, 07:12 PM (502 Views)
Jimmymac™	Feb 18 2010, 07:12 PM Post #1
Inspirational Posts: 12,155 Group: Members Member #13 Joined: September 13, 2007	Got some annoying little bugger on another forum basically telling me that the US practically won world war 2 single handed and that we would have failed miserably without them. Whilst I don't deny they had an impact I think its supremely arrogant to suggest that it was them that won the war, far too many other variables. Hitlers Operation Barbarossa plan to invade Russia was a big falling point when he over commited himself to trying to take the western edges of russia and got his arse handed to him for his trouble. So what are peoples thoughts, any war buffs out there? what were the key moments through the war that turned the tide? were we heading for inevitable defeat without the americans? Did they really capture the Enigma machine and not us (stupid sodding hollywood tw@ts, can't even get that bit right)?
	https://www.photoshop.com/user/jimmymac


Papa_Lazarou	Feb 18 2010, 07:17 PM Post #2
Absolutely Spiffing Fellow! Posts: 8,806 Group: Members Member #3,465 Joined: February 4, 2009 Team: Liverpool FC Players: Lauri Dalla Valle	We had a similar debate about his a long time ago with DaG - I can't remember who it was but there is defintely a WW2 buff amongst us somewhere who was putting him in his place



paddypower	Feb 18 2010, 07:18 PM Post #3
Forum Redemptionist Posts: 11,813 Group: Members Member #896 Joined: February 23, 2008 Team: Liverpool Players: Reina	Dag came right into my head. Stryke? He's in the army.



Jimmymac™	Feb 18 2010, 07:21 PM Post #4
Inspirational Posts: 12,155 Group: Members Member #13 Joined: September 13, 2007	well hopefully he spots this and gives us his insight Just annoyes me when they devalue our input into the war, so far as I understand it (and in very simple terms) many of the key battles won by the allied armies were conceived by the british, our strategic impact was one of the key things that won the war. I get the feeling that this lads using wiki to try and put across a point, his last piece was : Quote: Europe would be fine if you'd like it minority free and full of German speaking people. The US entering the European front was a massive turn around for the Allies, if we hadn't entered the European front there wouldn't have been any European Allied nations left. I'm not saying the contributions of the other Allied nations should be overlooked by any means, but it's not even arguable that the majority of the success on the Western Front came from US troops. Thats why we lead everything from that point on and we had far more troops on that front than any European nation did. The strength of the Allied Western Front was US 1st, 3rd, 7th, 9th, and 15th Armies. Other than that we had the British 2nd, Canadian 1st, and French 1st. Things could have gone either way with Russia and Germany. We essentially forced him to move into front after we entered the war and it was nothing but bad timing on Germany's part anyway. funny how wiki lists the armies on the western front in exactly that order (yes I know its alphabetical but its just a bit fishy to me). He's not taking into account the relative sizes of each of those forces, the british 2nd was bloody huge and comprised of a vast number of different units as I recall. As for that last bit about america basically forcing hitler to invade russia, WTF, the plan for that begun in 1940, america didnt enter the war until 1941!
	https://www.photoshop.com/user/jimmymac


paddypower	Feb 18 2010, 07:24 PM Post #5
Forum Redemptionist Posts: 11,813 Group: Members Member #896 Joined: February 23, 2008 Team: Liverpool Players: Reina	I'd love to get involved Jimmy but I'm clueless Got a mate that fair knows his history, love listening to him



Jimmymac™	Feb 18 2010, 07:27 PM Post #6
Inspirational Posts: 12,155 Group: Members Member #13 Joined: September 13, 2007	can't say i'm that clued up myself but I know enough to realise that the US were not the fundamental reason the Allies won the war, far more too it than that, end of the day it was a combined effort, US and Britain lost almost the same amount of people during that war
	https://www.photoshop.com/user/jimmymac


Papa_Lazarou	Feb 18 2010, 07:37 PM Post #7
Absolutely Spiffing Fellow! Posts: 8,806 Group: Members Member #3,465 Joined: February 4, 2009 Team: Liverpool FC Players: Lauri Dalla Valle	The point he makes about Germany only invading Russia because of the US is nonsense The start of Barbarossa was on 22nd June 1941 and the USA had done nothing bar sign an agreement to cancel the supply of strategic material to Japan. The attack on Pearly Harbour didn't occur until December. Previously the USA had point-blank denied helping out - they declared themselves neutral to start with. Then when France were in desparate straights in 1940 they refused aid to them. It wasn't until Japan actually attacked them personally that they even lifted a finger.



mumanc	Feb 18 2010, 07:41 PM Post #8
red thru and thru. Posts: 4,664 Group: Members Member #64 Joined: October 2, 2007	dont forget what the RAF did,and monty in the desert,also what had gone on for two years before they came into the war.



ECO	Feb 18 2010, 07:43 PM Post #9
Fearful Naturist Posts: 8,695 Group: Members Member #3,575 Joined: February 6, 2010 Team: LIVERPOOL Players: INSUA the LEGEND	mumanc Feb 18 2010, 07:41 PM dont forget what the RAF did,and monty in the desert,also what had gone on for two years before they came into the war. thats a good point acctually im learining about this in history atm
	WE DO NOT WANT CROUCHY THE GINGER WILL NOT ACCEPT HIM.


KingCole	Feb 18 2010, 08:23 PM Post #10
Running through the desert looking for strippers and cocaine Posts: 5,168 Group: Members Member #263 Joined: November 16, 2007 Team: To be confimed Players: To be confirmed	Jimmymac™ Feb 18 2010, 07:12 PM Got some annoying little bugger on another forum basically telling me that the US practically won world war 2 single handed and that we would have failed miserably without them. Whilst I don't deny they had an impact I think its supremely arrogant to suggest that it was them that won the war, far too many other variables. Hitlers Operation Barbarossa plan to invade Russia was a big falling point when he over commited himself to trying to take the western edges of russia and got his arse handed to him for his trouble. So what are peoples thoughts, any war buffs out there? what were the key moments through the war that turned the tide? were we heading for inevitable defeat without the americans? Did they really capture the Enigma machine and not us (stupid sodding hollywood tw@ts, can't even get that bit right)? Well tbf the main reason for Germanys defeat seem to come from their own failing as opposed to the Allies. First off as you said Barbarossa cause him to over commit but its still tough among historians that if Hitler had of invaded Russia 3 months before when he originally planned he would have missed the Russian winter and its thought Moscow would have fallen. Why he didnt invade 3 months earlier? down to Italy who became more of a problem than and ally for Germany, the Italian army was grossy undertrainded and struggled anywhere they went, except Ethopia although when your using guns and phosphorus gas on local tribes men it wasnt very hard to win. Italy were struggling after invading Greece and Hitler decided to hold off on his invasion of Russia and help out Italy in Greece holding off 3 months on his invasion and ending up hitting the harsh Russian winter, which resulted in a large number of casualities for the Germans. Also the Germans missed out on a a chance to take out the vast majority of the British army, while retreating from France the British were stuck in Calis and were short and ammo and supplies. The Germans had the oppertunity to out the retreating British army but chose not too and delayed the attack allowing the British to bring in any small boat they could find and bring their army home. Also the Germans made a huge mistake when they changed their bombing targets from the airports and landing strips to the cities allowing the British adaquite time to get their planes up and running and ready for bombing of German targets. Germany also made a huge mistake by declaring war on America after the americans attack the Japanese thus bringing America directly into the war. Also numerous other things could weigh into the arguement of the Germans bringing about their own downfall, such as the V2 rockets which if the Germans had more time would have certainly turned the war
	Anybody but France


VivaRonaldo	Feb 18 2010, 10:51 PM Post #11
The Greatest Premier League Player of All Time Posts: 11,609 Group: Members Member #3,412 Joined: November 16, 2008 Team: Manchester United Players: Scholes,Carrick,WR10	I love how Americans try to make it out as though they came to save the day when the Allies were running out of options. Didnt FDR deliberately let Pearl Harbour happen so he had an excuse to enter the war?
	"He's a gift from heaven, he is truly a gift from heaven. Whatever he touches turns to gold." - Alan Parry


goslow	Feb 19 2010, 03:45 PM Post #12
Lord of the Ring-pieces Posts: 811 Group: Members Member #3,381 Joined: October 25, 2008 Team: Cardiff City F.C. Players: Phil Stant	the russians defeated the german army in ww2. 3 out of every 5 german casualties occured on the eastern front. until the last months of the war there were never less than 200 german divisions facing east. the only time the western allies faced 100+ divisions was during the ardennes offensive (battle of the bulge)
	ego contemno palma venator


Woody	Feb 19 2010, 11:37 PM Post #13
Being good is not good enough when you dream of being great Posts: 11,422 Group: Members Member #63 Joined: October 2, 2007 Team: manchester united Players: JONG TAE-SE	Imo I believe that when Germany over ran the French and when they were left just facing Britain, I belive that the German army would have won. Don't get me wrong, the British put up a brilliant fight in the Battle of Britain and in North Africa. The two main turning points imo were the attack on Pearl Harbour and Hitlers stupidity in invading Russia. It would mainly be the latter that changed the way the war went on.



goslow	Feb 19 2010, 11:53 PM Post #14
Lord of the Ring-pieces Posts: 811 Group: Members Member #3,381 Joined: October 25, 2008 Team: Cardiff City F.C. Players: Phil Stant	for germany to have invaded the uk they would have had to get air superiority over the beachheads and neutralized the royal navy neither of which they ever obtained.hitler had given up on invading the uk long before the us joined the war.
	ego contemno palma venator


ECO	Feb 20 2010, 12:00 AM Post #15
Fearful Naturist Posts: 8,695 Group: Members Member #3,575 Joined: February 6, 2010 Team: LIVERPOOL Players: INSUA the LEGEND	goslow Feb 19 2010, 11:53 PM for germany to have invaded the uk they would have had to get air superiority over the beachheads and neutralized the royal navy neither of which they ever obtained.hitler had given up on invading the uk long before the us joined the war. thats were the battle of britain came into play
	WE DO NOT WANT CROUCHY THE GINGER WILL NOT ACCEPT HIM.


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